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The discussion about the Egyptian Heiroglyphs have surfaced once again as the developers try to move into Bambara Road at Kariong in 2010
Many are happy to dismiss them as fakes and just as many believe they are real and many people believe those people...
Of course if they were real our history would have been re-written long ago , but rumours and people's beliefs cloud our judgement some times ( not all of us though ! )
Once the story of the glyphs reached the web it also garnered a new following of "new agers" and self declared experts and theorists , for which the carvings validated their beliefs in nice colour photographs.
Despite being presented with valid scientific proof and reports from a variety of experts , it seems some will reject all and continue with the myth.
Most of this seems to stem from a man named Ray Johnson who supposedly translated the glyphs and sent the results to a few experts overseas and the local authorities in Australia.
While we have copies of the letters he sent , we do not have any of the replies , so the translations have never been verified or acted upon.
Ray Johnson claimed he had written 4 volumes about Egyptian heiroglyphs and language and that it was accepted by the Musuem of Antiquities in Cairo.
In the letters I have Ray never states his qualifications other than the fact he is a researcher.
This all happened nearly 15 years after the NPSW , Gosford Council and Sydney University carried out studies and declared the work fake.
All the experts agree that the symbols are badly done and are probably carved by someone who was studying Egypt or was copying what he saw in a book.
So it is true some of the symbols actually are real and spell out words , this must not be confused as them being translated into the story as told by Ray Johnson
It also doesn't mean that they were carved by the Egyptians either , nearby dated Aboriginal carvings are around 250 years old and are much more eroded.
A property located within 60 metres of the glyph site existed from around 1929 , the owner was E.F Gilford who was so fascinated with the local Aboriginal carvings , that he wrote an article for the local newspaper in 1931.
E.F Gilford scoured the land around his home and recorded many sites unknown to anyone at the time , later in 1960 he was aided by a local researcher B. Pankhurst and they mapped and photographed every Aboriginal site in the Kariong area.
Remember Mr Gilfords property boundary ( in red ) was only 60 metres away from the glyphs site and he lived there for over 25 years.
2 other private holdings were in the area owned by Follan who had a pig farm and the Camerons who had a house and farm.
By that time the area had been extensively surveyed for roads , power lines , mineral and scientific explorations , the army in both wars and Lyre Trig was built just 120 metres away from the carvings.
With all that activity not one person or valid report exists of the glyphs prior to 1975
Parish maps of the area note the locations of Aboriginal sites but not the glyphs in every edition.
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As the popularity of internet forums grew the topic of the glyphs arose on several sites , this brought the attention of Egyptologists like Dr Meltzer who was actually paid to examine the glphs via correspondence , while he agreed that the symbols spelt out names and words he never offered a full translation.
Later on as people informed him about the local history of the area and prevoius reports he began his own research into the background.
I note in his final posts he pleas for valid information on the status of the glyphs pre 1980's , but never gets a reply.
He is also sent a confusing letter from Ray Johnson offering to send him his translations , he remarks later on that he cannot agree with Ray Johnsons " archaic theory "
Private website owner A. Keating made a website based on the report on Ray Johnson findings by a Dr Gilbert.
Dr Gilbert also called the glyphs forgeries.
After that report was published online , Paul White who had help place Ray Johnsons story online and had a written an article , distanced himself from the whole affair.
On the Ancient Lost Treasures forum in 2004 a member ( Tom Walter ) contacted the Gosford History group and was told the carvings were done by a schoolboy in the 60's , the Elvina group has recently contacted members of that group who verified the story again in 2010.
Since 2007 all discussions involving Dr Meltzer have ceased , many sites have stories on the glphs and all use parts of the story from different parts of the web , no new reaseach has taken place since.
In October 2010 I personally contacted the first person documented to find the glyphs and spoke to him on the phone at length , Alan Dash worked as a surveyor for Gosford Council and discovered them in 1975 , he also witnessed them being created.
Read the full account here
To get a better picture of the story I've made a timeline with all relevant links included:
1825
- First land surveys carried out in Brisbane Waters
- Woy Woy Road built
1929
- Gilford , Follan and Cameron purchase blocks at Bambara Rd
- Parish map of blocks here
1931
- Gilford writes article on nearby Aboriginal carvings
- Article here
1955
- Bob Cummins visits site and notes carvings are present but faint - rumour not confirmed ( see letter from R Johnson to Gosford Council 1997 )
1960's
- Students from Gosford High School carve/re carve/ add to glyphs - rumour confirmed by Tom Walter* in 2004 and Elvina group* in 2010 after contact with members of the Gosford Historical Group
1964
- University students visit site and carve/re carve/ add to walls - rumour not confirmed ( see letter from R Johnson to Gosford Council 1997 )
1975
- Council surveyor Alan Dash notes site
- Alan Dash notes site being added to - Read interview here
1983
- Article in Central Coast Express
- Mr David Lambert Rock Art Conservator of the Cultural Heritage Division of the NPWS visits site
- Pictures taken in 1983/1984 by the NPWS
- Photographs of the hieroglyphs were sent to Prof. NageebKanawati, head of the Department of Egyptology at Macquarie University, Sydney.
- Prof. Nageeb Kanawati replies and declares the carvings as fake
1984
- Ranger Neil Martin catches old Yugoslavian man carving at site
- Ranger Neil Martin notes additional carvings being added afterwards
1994
- Ray Johnson visits site with Dr Whitehouse and Yahn
- Ray Johnson sends letter to Dr Abou - Gazi Director of the Museum of Antiquities Cairo
- Copy of letter here
1996
- Paul White writes article for Exposure magazine Vol 2 No.6
- Copy of article here
1997
- Ray Johnson writes to Gosford Council
- Copy of letter here
1998
- A. Keating establishes contact with Dr Gilbert and creates website here
- Dr Gilbert denounces carvings as fakes
- Article here
- Paul White rejects his own story and agrees with the forgery theory
- Bambara site under threat from developers - letters of support from local Mp's
2001
- Hans-Dieter von Senff writes to Carmel Tebutt assisting the Ministerfor National Parks and Wildlife [Refschauge]
- Carmel Tebutt confirms carvings are fake based on NPWS study
- Carmel Tebutt confirms air shaft / underground chamber not present in 1983 inspection
- See post at Ancient Lost Treasures
2003
- Article written by David Coltheart in Archaeological Diggings Vol 10 No 5 Oct/Nov 2003 Issue No 58
- Article here
2004
- Tom Walters contacts Philippe Tabuteau of the Gosford Historical Group
- Philippe Tabuteau confirms carvings were done by persons known to him
- Dr Meltzer is contracted by John Anthony West to decipher the glyphs
- Dr Meltzer's post at Ancient Lost Treasures
2005
- Don Hitchcock maps writes article here
2007
- Dr Meltzer discusses the glyphs online at the Glyph Doctors
- Dr Meltzer receives information from Ray Johnson
- Dr Meltzer dimisses Ray Johnsons "archaic theory"
- Last post from Dr Meltzer here
2008
- Glenndining, Minto and Associates apply to build at Bambara Rd
- DA rejected by Gosford Council
2009
- Developers launch appeal in Lands and Environment court
2010
- Court hearing April - decision reserved to a later date
- Elvina group contacts Tabuteau family member
- Tabuteau family member suspects carvings were done by a pupil/s from Gosford High School in the 60's
- June - Land and Environment court rejects current DA by Glenndining, Minto and Associates
- Alan Dash confirms carvings done between 1975 and 1983 - Report here
- Blocks in the area are offered for sale again , Council does not buy them
- I am sent the original NPWS site photos taken in 1983 , after examination I found evidence of the glyphs being added to after the photos were taken - see article here
2011
- Single block sold to private purchaser
- Local protest group camps on site for 90 days in action against development proposals
- I contact the NPWS for information on the glyphs - letter here
- I contact Prof. NageebKanawati, head of the Department of Egyptology at Macquarie University, Sydney. - email reply here
- Glyphs featured on History channel documentary , Tony Robinson visits site. - video here
- Gosford Council appoints mediator to negotiate purchase of blocks along Bambara Rd
- Steven Strong and Dr Hans Dieter Von Senff enter Brisbane Waters National Park to conduct illegal archaeological studies and excavations at the glyphs site and illegally remove artifacts
2012
- Unemployed school teacher Steven Strong writes articles for New Dawn magazine and Indigenous Times
- Retired bus driver Hans Dieter Von Senff releases " Ancient Egyptians in Australia "
- Gosford Council agrees to buy one of the blocks on Bambara Road for inclusion into the BWNP
- Fringe website Wake up World publishes Steven Strongs Kariong theories
- News article from Steven Strong about his Kariong theories is pulled down from the ABC website
within hours of it's release
2013
- Glyphs site suffers from increased traffic , underground cavity which theorists claim is a " tomb "
is continually interfered with , NPWS fill in the cavity and post warning signs
- Steven Strong claims to find UFO carving close to the glyphs site , it turns out to be an Aboriginal
carving of a whale
2014
- New website created http://karionghieroglyphs.blogspot.com.au/
My videos at YouTube
TO THIS DATE NO ONE HAS BEEN ABLE TO PROVIDE SOLID SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE THAT THE EGYPTIANS OR ANY OTHER CULTURE VISITED KARIONG OVER 4000 YEARS AGO
I reckon Phillipe done it.
ReplyDeleteAin't myths and glyphs a seductive thang?
Well done Steve, an excellent post.
I am determined to get to the bottom of this as I'm sick of arguing with crystal bearing new agers !
ReplyDeleteAnd in the last couple of days with the aid of some new friends I have.
Trouble is the culprits indentity has to remain a secret to protect his quite famous familys reputation
Phillipe died some years back but left enough info behind to continue our search , we still have to track down his lost box of files on the glyphs
to whom it concerns?
ReplyDeleteMy wife and I have visited the Glyphs twice, we have hundreds of photos and have read several so-called experts, but no-where do any of these persons talk or mention the man-made curved stone composition trough two levels up? I collect rare rocks and stones from all over Oz, from Cape Hillsborough Qld to Kaputa, but I have never seen anything similar to the trough at Kariong. Go and have another look with your eyes and mind open, if you want the pics email me rrr@skymesh.com.au
Bobby C. Queensland
Thanks for leaving a comment Bob
ReplyDeleteFirstly I have lived here since 1965 , the glyphs are located nearby and I have visited them over 20 times , I'm not sure what particular feature you are referring to so you might have to send me a pic , the local Hawkesbury sandstone has some fascinating shapes caused by weathering and man , you might enjoy this page http://www.elvina.info/BWNP/index.html
You say you collect rocks but are you a geologist ? and what should I keep my mind open for ?
It seems you may have just browsed through this page and not bothered to inform yourself a bit better before launching your remarks
I may also point you to my following story in case you just surfed onto this particular page , it shows the glyphs freshly cut in 1983 http://woywoynet.blogspot.com/2010/05/myth-busting.html
Hi Woy Woy Steve,
ReplyDeleteThanks for compiling all that information! Quite a research project you've undertaken.
I've visited the Woy Woy glyphs on several occasions, and whatever one can say about their authenticity... It's a fun place. It's peaceful, it's beautiful, and I feel lucky that we have these crazy engravings at our backdoor.
Wishing you a beautiful day.
Now it is claimed that a schoolboy has created the hierogliphic site. What a load of proverbial bull...
ReplyDeleteEither climb on top ofthe site and investigate the Capstone with its great Glypt,or try to explain why the boulder is supported by a manmade stilt...
Or you may try to get down under the site via the vertical tunnel and investigate the Chamber and explain to yourself the following:
How could one boy ever attempt to carve this chamber and carry the sandstone plates into the airshaft.
And explain to the readers, why on
top of the Site are numerous Boulders, yet none of them are visible on the plateau beyond.
This is a real aercheological site that needs protection by the NSW. Government.
I don't neccesarily back the schoolboy theory , at the least it may have been originally started by them , nearby is a cave with fake aboriginal handprints done in red enamel paint , but that theory is mouch more feasible than yours which you are unable to back up in any factual or scientific way
ReplyDeleteThe overhanging boulder is a natural formation common amongst Hawkesbury Sandstone , ask any geologist it is nothing special and definately not man made in any way apart from a crude attempt by unknown persons to create an underground chamber sometime after 1983
You will have to explain to me what you think about any boulders laying about the place because I don't know what the hell you are trying to say
When you have some definate proof and not a theory come back and enlighten us !
A challengeto Steve.
ReplyDeleteSteve. Why don't you go back to basics. Ignore the hieroglyphics for the time being. Are you game enough to accept my challenge?
First of all, get on top of the hieroglyphic site, take a camera with you and take a picture of the great glypth of Djes-eb. Then get under the boulder and take a picture of the 60X60 centimeter and one meter high manmade stone pillar and explain to everyone, how one or two people would have lifted a thirty to fifty ton boulder ?
Climb down again and stand in front of Anubis, turn to the left, climb over the incline and you should find a covered or uncovered hole near the wall. Climb into it, it is only two meters deep. Have your camera ready, you need a flash
and a torch and explain to the readers the air shaft built of dressed sandstone plates. Explain to the readers, how they are constructed and how they were carried by one or two people inside the site.
Now Steve, lay on the bottom of the shaft and worm your way into the adjoining chamber, but dont forget your torch and your camera.
Take a picture of the east wall.
Has it a light coloured sandstone fitted into it ?
Now turn to the west wall. Is it solid rock or just plates that are sealed against wet weather at the ceiling? Done that, Steve. Now proceed to the northern side of the three meter long chamber. Can you see the one meter deep shaft, again square. Take a picture of it and explain to your readers, how modern man made this with one chissel...! Now look above you, can you see the man made work in the ceiling,always remembering the fact that you are two metres underground in supposedly solid rock. Take a picture of it and explain to your readers who made it. If you have a steel bar with you, tamp the floor under you and have someone on the surface listen. If your hitting solid Stone, no one on the surface will hear you, but it is hollow underneath, hence the sound will be heard on the surface. And you do not find hollow spaces in solid sandstone, agreed. So the shaft you are standing in must be the roof of another chamber, because ancient man, who made it, built it logically, step by step, so that it would entomb only the dead and not the living. Now go back on the surface and search for the Pyramid glypt. Note the inscription of it. It shows the way out and into the underground structure with the exception of the exit by which you entered and the airshaft.
Steve! Are you willing to accept the challenge.
Hans-Dieter von Senff Ph.D.
Please send me your e-mail so that I can post the 2001 pictures of the underground structure to you.
authorhans74@hotmail.com
Dear old Hans
ReplyDeleteI told you not to come back until you had some firm evidence that the Egyptians , insribed the glyphs and constructed the underground bits , you failed that challenge.
I have no doubt that some of the underground sections have been enhanced by humans , funny how some of the plates are the exact thickness of paving stones / flag stones / crazy paving.
Plenty of that available at the myriad of sandstone quarries that are in the area.
Just because some loon built them does not mean the Egyptians done them , remember the NPWS and folk from Sydney Uni studied all this in 1983 just after the carvings were " discovered " but you people seem to ignore that fact.
You may want to read this page http://woywoynet.blogspot.com/2010/10/alan-dash-speaks-about-gosford-glyphs.html , I rang the first person documented the find the glyphs and he watched the whole lot get done slowly over a year or 2 , but lets no get the facts get in the way of a good story eh , one you might want to sell ?
The fact you have a vested interest in the site via your publication undermines your credibility in my book and places you along side the like of Rex Gilroy and co.
Don't bother sending your photos , I already have a scanned copy of your book and have been inside the chambers 3 times .
Now just recently I sent a real geologist in to study the site , he has seen your photos and states that most if not all the things you mention are naturally formed and can be explained easily , how familiar are you with Hawkesbury Sandstone ? , he even debated my theory that the sandstone plates are man made , this sort of fracturing occurs naturally along with what appears to be chisel marks
So I am more inclined to believe him than you with your PHD ( in what may I ask ? )
Would you like a copy of the 1983 photos that show the whole east wall freshly carved ?
Did you not study my pics of " Anubis " and see that it was added to after the 1983 photos ?
How do you explain this ? , do they have a Tardis ?
There you go I have addressed your " challenge " without having to kit up and waste my time once again for the sake of some random internet comment
I suggest you spend a little more time researching the whole background of the site and not worry about bits of sandstone that prove nothing.
Like I said before many times if they were real , Woy Woy McDonalds would be shaped like a pyramid !
Steve,
ReplyDeleteThere are none as blind as those, who do not want to see.
I have issued you a challenge, but.
In your so-called study you state, that I wrote to M/s Teebut, but fail to state, what my advice to her was. I classified it bas an archeaological site that needs government protection.
You talk abot Hawksbury Sandsone, but don't explain why a three meter long chamber with vertical walls is formed inside solid sandstone two meters underground.
Furthermore, you ignored the fact of the pictorial evidence, that this chamber also has a blocked off
entry to a lower chamber.
You are ignorant of the fact, that only meters from Anubis, the ground you walk on is hollow, build by ancient man, because modern man would not waste time to split huge boulders and put them into place. Did you show them to your "Real Geologist?"
Sorry Steve you failed even the most basic test of investigating the site. Crimminology teaches us that every crime scene holds the keys of solving the crime...If one knows what to look for.
You obviously do not know, what to look for and your "real geologist" did not explain, how a number of sandstone plates, alligned like soldiers, stand in line to form the
airshaft.
Wayne Shipton, a former Quantas ground Engineer stated to me: It would have taken a minimum of Thirty Men at least one year, to construct this underground site!"
Maybe it is about time, you give your "real Geologist" a name, so that your claims can be verified.
Dr. Hans-Dieter von Senff
authorhans74@hotmail.com
" There are none as blind as those, who do not want to see. "
ReplyDeleteYou see Hans you are a believer and I am not , I suppose Bigfoot is real as well ?
" In your so-called study you state, that I wrote to M/s Teebut, but fail to state, what my advice to her was. I classified it bas an archeaological site that needs government protection "
If you are referring to the timeline I made up well it doesn't go into great detail , yes Hans you have written to a few people stating claims about the site and guess what to date no one has acted on or agreed with you - pattern forming now ?
" Furthermore, you ignored the fact of the pictorial evidence, that this chamber also has a blocked off entry to a lower chamber. "
Your pictures do not show this lower " burial chamber " you merely guess that it might be there in your line drawings , take a ground penetrating radar next time instead of incense and crystals eh
" You are ignorant of the fact, that only meters from Anubis, the ground you walk on is hollow, build by ancient man, because modern man would not waste time to split huge boulders and put them into place. Did you show them to your "Real Geologist?" "
Yes in fact he visited the site and without bothering to dig up his email I can tell you the site is situated at the edge of a crumbing sandstone plate that is slowy sliding way from the hillside, as it fractures it forms nice shapes here and there and is nothing out of the ordinary , of course it may have been added to here and there with local sandstone slabs and a bit of human endeavour.
" Wayne Shipton, a former Quantas ground Engineer stated to me: It would have taken a minimum of Thirty Men at least one year, to construct this underground site!" "
Now thats just plain speculation and bullshit sorry and what qualifications does Wayne have ? Why bother quoting that he is a former Quantas employee , that adds no credibility at all !
does anyone know where the pyramid is near the central coast its said to look like the one at gympie
ReplyDeleteThere is no pyramid on the Central Coast , another work of fiction by the Rex Gilroy and co loonies
ReplyDeleteThe Gympie pyramid story is a whole load of hogswallop as well
I contributed to the Archaeological News articles a few yrs back and have visited the glyphs several times. The site is an anomoly however not ancient. Ample undeniable proof exists that the carvings and any other man-made manipulation of the site are relatively recent. Simply an elaborate work of scrambled graffiti. No-one has mentioned or perhaps noticed that there is a line of rotting power poles going through the bush to the ruined house within 100 metres of the glyphs. This site had power. With a small jackhammer most of the work could have been done over a couple of weekends. The only mystery is that no-one has come forth and claimed their work. They are probably alive and well and chuckling at all the fuss. The crystal gazers don't congregate at the Bobbin Head Sphinx, which is just as impressive. Reason ? Easy, as it is documented as being carved by William Shirley. Woy Woy Steve I salute you for being sane in your stance against "New Age Loons". Dave
ReplyDeleteBack in 2001 I interviewed several Aboriginal people from this area they told me the Glyphs are fakes done by students back in the 1960/70s.I posted to Gilroy's blog site and copped a nasty spray from one of his cohorts.NSW Park Rangers busted people with cold chisels in the act , all well documented.
ReplyDeleteAlso the Gympie Pyramid is of contemporary origin, how do I know? My grandfather was a leasee of the land during the 1930/40s and just told me straight out it was constructed by Europeans. The Gympie Ape is another one.During the gold rush there over 25000 chinese were working claims there.
Years ago a noted U.K Egyptoligist visited the East Coast of The U.S and got busy with a chisel making Hyroglyphs here& there, then sat back and waited for the fun to begin. It only took 10 years for "Egyptians visited Mayne" frauds to surface.He sank them all even disclosing where there were glyphs they'd missed. Hilarious
To Woy woy Steve excellent piece of research. I'm very impressed, this means I don't have to compile all the real evidence to debunk this fallacy. According to your earlier statement you said you were prepared to share the research that you'd gathered. Is this offer still open? I'm currently writing a series of satirical novels bedunking historical and archaeologicl myths, the Glyphs were next on my list, as a proof of my bona fides I give you one of my blogs http://prognosticationsandpouting.blogspot.com/2010_07_01_archive.html A rather amusing account of tens of thousands of ancient egyptions slaving away to build that host of pryamids that of course must be hidden all over Australia. I would greatly appreciate any correspondence. Regards Gregory House gphouse@westnet.com.au
ReplyDeletehttp://prognosticationsandpouting.blogspot.com/2010_07_01_archive.html
ReplyDeleteI don't believe the new-age theories, but reading through this argument it's pretty clear that I don't really think people are interested in the history... They just want the pleasure of proving everyone wrong, for what reason we can't just leave it a mystery and enjoy it as a bit of local folklore I don't know... I don't understand why people get so personal about it. Someone has evidently gone to a lot of trouble to put the carvings in, and we'll probably never know why because he's afraid of getting verbally abused.
ReplyDeleteAs for the Egyptian theories, also after reading through this blog, I'll be going up there with a torch and having a better look... Not because I can then ram my opinion down everyone's throats, but because I find it very intriguing!
The ones pushing the "Egyptians did it theory " are those who make money from the books , DVD's , " Sacred Fragrances " they sell to dopey crystal bearing Indiana Jones wannbes and as long as they misinform I shall publish the true details.
ReplyDeleteI took a 22 year old female friend up there recently and she giggled at how amatuerish the carvings were and the fact that folk thought they might be real , she doesn't have any special qualifiations that make her an expert btw enjoy your bushwalk , you won't need a torch lol
i am new to this and all i can express is that bobby sounds pretty well spot on and so is Hans and as for mr/ms Anonymous in his last comment he/she is right it is INTRIGUING.
ReplyDeletei too would like to know where this place is then i can go look for myself, i love bush walks so to go here would be one of many that i would love to go on
be on the look out for Yowies and don't go there after dark or the UFO'S will kidnap you ;)
ReplyDeleteI am having a good laugh at all of this. I REALLY want this to be true, yet it is so painfully obvious that they are faked.
ReplyDeleteI met a man recently who spent 30 years digging around the eastern coast, producing 'artefacts' and developing pre-european settlement theories. He even wrote an extensive e-book based on his theories. The man basically spent the better half of his life digging holes and dedicating himself to his work.
What happened, you ask? I went on a day trip with the guy to see if any of his claims had merit. What I beheld was a crazy old man that had spent years convincing himself that he was always right. Every few steps he believed there was a sign, or buried treasure, or whatever... Before long I got bored and started pretending I found sign too! He completely agreed with me aswell. Why? Because he invested too much of himself into his theories to let them go. Any scrap of hope he could find, he held on to. All that was left was a sad old man that had wasted his life digging holes.
No offense Hans, but you are just like that old man. You had your theory, run with it for years and have been proven incorrect by those with real qualifications in the field. Cut your losses now mate and go enjoy the rest of your life! If you enjoy archaology this much, go find another (legit) project!
Wilkes
His name wasn't Rex Gilroy was it lol ?
ReplyDeleteI cannot see how anybody who has visited the Egyptian glyphs site could actually think that these engravings are in any way authentic. It's all a bit silly. This site has some pictures of some engravings in that area - http://sydneyrockart.info/bambara-road/
ReplyDelete